A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
President Trump is remaking Washington's alliances - and his own - now lashing out at one of his few remaining allies in Europe. In a phone interview with a major Italian daily newspaper, Trump slammed Italy's prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, for what he calls a lack of courage. This coincides with Trump's spat with Pope Leo, in which the president described the leader of the Catholic Church as, quote, "weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy." Meloni described those remarks as unacceptable. Trump turned that back on Meloni and called her unacceptable in an interview with Viviana Mazza. She is the U.S.-based correspondent for the newspaper Corriere della Sera. And Viviana is on the line with us now from Italy.
President Trump spoke to you yesterday about the Italian prime minister, who was once a reliable Trump ally among Europe's more far-right leaders. What did the president tell you?
VIVIANA MAZZA: He said - he started asking me whether Italians like the fact that Giorgia Meloni isn't giving the U.S. any help in getting the oil. That was his first question. I didn't even ask a question at that point, and he asked me what Italians think. And he answered that himself. He said, I can't imagine that. And he said, I'm shocked at her, at Giorgia Meloni, because I thought she had the courage, but I was wrong. I asked him repeatedly whether he talked to her because we didn't have any report of conversations between them in the last month. And he said no. He said - he clearly showed that he was surprised and said that he was surprised that she didn't act, you know, basically, supporting the U.S. in the Strait of Hormuz with minesweepers or with any other means.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah. Now, based on your reporting, do you think this is just a little disagreement between the two, or it could be the sign of a larger rift?
MAZZA: Well, it's the first time, for sure, that we have President Trump say something like this about Giorgia Meloni. He has criticized other leaders, like Starmer, like Macron, but not Giorgia Meloni. He has criticized NATO before, and he did again with me and Europe, but he didn't really target Giorgia Meloni. And actually, a month ago, on March 7, when I called him on the phone - just like I did yesterday - he told me that she was a great leader and a friend of his, and he also said she always tries to help. So definitely, this is a big change, a change that is having effects, you know, in Italy as well. But it's the result, I think, of what Giorgia Meloni has been doing. She also - the words on the pope, I think, they were particularly - they bothered Trump, I think.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah. Do you think that - from an Italian perspective, that Meloni had to defend the pope? I mean, did she have to respond for political reasons?
MAZZA: Yeah, I think she did, and she didn't immediately say that word, unacceptable. She said it later on the day where - when Trump had tweeted. And, you know, initially, when she didn't say words that were so sharp, some people started to criticize her. I think that she had, you know, to say that, to show that support.
MARTÍNEZ: Viviana Mazza is the U.S.-based correspondent for the newspaper Corriere della Sera. Thank you very much for your time.
MAZZA: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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